Israel vs Zionism
Good comment on Matt's post here:
Dismantling the apartheid-like situation in the West Bank, by contrast, doesn't require liquidating the Zionist enterprise it just requires the dismantling of the settlement system
I agree that improving the situation of Palestinians living under Israeli control does not involve liquidating the Zionist enterprise. But the notion that the oppression of Palestinians is a matter of small exceptions such as Hebron, or that the illegal settlements are the only barriers to justice for Palestinians, is just out of tune with reality.
I find the most troubling aspect of this incredibly contentious disagreement is the denial of the objective reality of Palestinian suffering. It is simply objectively true that some Palestinian cities are placed under 24 hour curfew, with no system in place to challenge the curfew. It is simply a fact that Palestinian homes are routinely bulldozed without due process or legal recourse, and that rebuilding those homes requires a permit that costs more than the average Palestinian makes in years-- and which carries no guarantee that the rebuilt home won't be demolished. It is a fact that Palestinians in many areas require special identification cards, that they have to pass through Palestinian only checkpoints, that they are subject to interrogations and questioning that Israeli Jews aren't. And, yes, it is a fact that an enormous wall which has been planned with complete disregard for existing communities divides residential areas from roads, isolates individual neighborhoods and deprives people living in a desert climate from water.
The wisdom of these actions is debatable. You can, and many do, argue that they are necessary to promote Israeli security. There, I think, there's room for dialogue. But it seems that for far to many supporters of Israel, discussion can't include accounting for Palestinian oppression at all. And when you start from that kind of a place, you are involved in self-delusion.
I'm also saddened that you seem to present ending the project of Zionism as the goal of people who support justice for Palestinians. There are some who are opposed to the existence of Israel at all, yes. But to suggest that anyone who is opposed to the status quo for some of the most beleagured people on earth is anti-Zionist is, I think, wrong headed. I personally support the Zionist enterprise, although it depends on the definition of Zionism. What I take issue with is the existence anywhere of a state with an explicitly ethnic or religious character. I don't like state religion, not in Israel or America or Iran or Saudi Arabia. And I don't like countries that are founded for individual ethnicities. If that's being opposed to Zionism, I suppose I am. But I do support the existence of a secular, egalitarian Israel, one that ensures safety and freedom for Jews and Palestinians alike. I don't think acknowledging the horrible conditions that Palestinians face prevents someone from supporting the continued existence of Israel.
Quite.
-posted by Adam
Saying this, it is time to say however. However, when the whole paragraph starting with the words "It is simply objectively true" is full of errors and (unintentional, I hope) misrepresentations, it is difficult to stay in tune with the whole.
Of course, it is impossible to argue with "I don't think acknowledging the horrible conditions that Palestinians face prevents someone from supporting the continued existence of Israel."
And of course, Adam meant only good, but it shows the danger inherent in uninformed well-wishing. (Comment this)